#21 - Maren Poitras, Creator of MMT Documentary "Finding the Money"

Unknown: 0:16

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Adam Rice: 0:34

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the applied MMT podcast, we have another special guest today. Maren Poitras, who is the filmmaker behind the MMT documentary titled finding the money. We're very excited to have Maren on the show today. She actually allowed us to view a private screening of finding the money. And I think Ryan, Doug, and I were all very impressed with it. So with that, we'll get started. Martin would love to hear maybe some of your background, and then also just how you first came to be interested in MMT. And what inspired you to to make this great film? Yeah,

Maren Poitras: 1:10

no, thanks. And yeah, very happy to be here. So yeah, you know, I like I was saying, I kind of came across the film, from a climate background. So my background is more in you know, environmental studies, climate, agriculture, and really trying to understand these big picture issues, you know, and how can we address some of these big systemic challenges and problems, not just climate, but inequality, too, you know, so many of those are the big social problems, how can we address them more on a systemic level? And so in doing starting to delve into some of that, you know, first I found ecological economics. And then there was just like, a random quote in a book that said, Oh, and you know, banks create money to, like, wait, what, you know, and that just like, it was just like, one sentence, and it stopped me. And I was like, what does this mean, you know, and so, I just started digging more. And, you know, that led me to some of the different, you know, alternative economics types, things, that there's something called Positive Money and other ideas floating around, and then eventually, finally got to MMT. And things just started to clarify and make sense. And they had a description of the world that just fell into place, you know, and seemed to make intuitive sense. And so, but it was such a compelling story in itself, that there was this small group of economists, you know, heterodox economists non mainstream, and there was so much conflict around the story. At the same time, you know, there, the the established mainstream field of the economics profession was was saying this group was was crazy, and, you know, out of their minds that don't listen to them. So there's a lot of conflict and controversy, and that actually just drew me in more, you know, was could, you know, could it be true that this small group, are saying something that the entire mainstream field has somehow missed? You know, and big things like foundational things, right? I mean, the nature of money itself, what is money? Where does it come from? How does it work? And thus, how do our entire economies work? And how could they, you know, maybe work differently or produce different outcomes for people? You know, even the question is, what is the economy for to begin with? You know, is it just to grow itself and, you know, kind of feed, feed humans into this economic machine to produce something we call economic growth? Or is the economy a tool in itself to provide for, you know, human wellbeing and, you know, hopefully planetary sustainability at the same time, because we live on one planet. But long story short, you know, I came to the story of MMT, it seemed like information that was not widely understood. And to say the least, and no one else was I went out, I went around being like, you know, who is going to tell this story in a movie? Because it's clearly, you know, it's clearly an important story. It has all the elements of a story of conflict, and really, really important and urgent ramifications, if what they're saying is correct. So. So I went around trying to figure out who else might be working on this, and no one else really was. So I guess I just kind of took it on myself. And it's been a journey ever since. But, yeah, there's a real urgency, I think, driving me forward in terms of, are we going to act, you know, on the speed and scale necessary to address the climate crisis? And keep our economies? You know, and people sustained as well at the same time? So, yeah, long story short.

Adam Rice: 4:31

Awesome. And what what time period was that? So you found out about MMT? When and then like, when did you actually kick off creating the film?

Unknown: 4:40

Yeah, so I think, around 2016 or 17, I came across the words, you know, MMT, and then just started diving into any book I could find. So of course, that was Randy Ray's, you know, primer on Modern Money theory, Modern Money theory, as he likes to call it. And then as I was saying, I went to the the first MMT conference finally in 2018. So that was after doing a lot of reading because, you know, I was pretty skeptical at first too. I was like, This doesn't make any sense. What are they saying like, money is debt too, or is that you know, like, that was a sticking point for me and I Just like couldn't get past a few things. And so it was a lot of piecing together, you know? And then finally, you know, there were there were moments of those clarities. And like moments of it clicking, and those kind of like aha moments, right? Through my reading and trying to piece together the pieces of the puzzle. And so those were really gratifying, you know, and it's like, I wanted to share that, like, how can I encapsulate these aha moments and guide people through that journey, hopefully, in a shorter timeframe than two years, condense that down to 95 minutes. And hopefully, you can have that same experience in a way of having revelations and having things fall into place. So so then I went to go meet folks in person and 2018, at the MMT conference, and then I began shooting in early 2019, which was really kind of the time when the green New Deal was first proposed by AOC, you know, in January of 2019. And then she just mentioned MMT, once, and it was off to the races, you know, they just started getting tons of coverage in the prints and TV. And, and then, of course, a lot of, you know, a lot of controversial coverage. But you know, no, no press is bad press, as they say, right, so. So this was an exciting time to kind of be be trying to follow them and trying to capture that moment. And as it continued to, you know, who knew that COVID was coming? And, you know, who knew what was what was all coming in the future? So I've just kind of been following that journey, and then a long, long editing process of trying to rein in this very complex subject of story. Right. Right,

Adam Rice: 6:48

while you did a great job of it. And I think, I think, you know, Ryan, Doug, and I all had kind of similar experiences with MMT and addressed it in different ways. Like I started my previous podcast after having a similar experience. And, you know, Ryan, and Doug, also, I'm sure felt similarly when they first found out about MMT. Martin, can you tell us what so I know, you know, you've done a few screeners of the film already. Can you tell us more about those and how those have gone so far? Yeah,

Unknown: 7:22

definitely. So we premiered at Woodstock Film Festival and in around October 2023. And so we've just played it about like five film festivals. And now we're, you know, gearing up for really exciting 2024, where we're finally going to, you know, release the film widely. We're going to do a limited theatrical release in probably early May 2024. So hopefully, you couldn't go to your local theater and see it. I mean, it won't be in that if you're in a major city, or please contact us request. If you think you can bring out an audience to your local theater, let us know. And also, if you want to put on a campus screening, community screening, we're very open to all that. So please, you know, go to our website, finding money film.com, you can contact us. And so yeah, we just want to do, the more screenings we can do, the better. And I really encourage I really think this is a great movie to watch with an audience. Like you guys didn't get to watch it with an audience. But I really encourage you to still go when we premiere in New York and watch it with an audience because it is it's actually a fun one. To hear the reactions and to like to be in it with with an audience. There are actually a lot of reactions that happened through the film that I wasn't sure you know how it was gonna play. So the first time I watched it with an audience, was it at Woodstock in? Like the Woodstock Film Festival? One? Yeah, the audience reaction was was great. You know, I loved it. And then, you know, we could, we've played it a few more, and they've just, they've been terrific as well. A very kind of consistent responses, kind of very similar consistent responses. You know, there's the scene 10 minutes in, and I wasn't sure how the reactions were gonna go, but I loved it. So um, so anyhow, they, yeah, it's been very gratifying. And you know, everyone coming up. After we've, we've usually been able to stay to Q and A's discussions. Maybe Stephanie Kelton? Is there other protagonists from the film? I've been there? So, so yeah, I really recommend coming out and seeing it in person and then being able to discuss and ask questions after because this is, you know, it is only an intro, right? Because there's only so much you can cover in 95 minutes, there's a lot more I wanted to cover, and there's a lot more implications. So you're gonna have maybe more questions and answers, necessarily at the end. So it's important to be able to, you know, I think have that avenue to ask questions and discuss. Because there's, there's a lot that this might bring up. So. So yeah, the screenings. Interesting screenings are great. I encourage folks to go out and then it'll have it, you know, and then it'll be available on digital mental at home if you do prefer that. But But yeah,

Adam Rice: 9:54

awesome. Well, I'll speak for Ryan, who's also located in the New York area, if you need help arranging and screening, I think we'd be happy to collaborate on that. Yeah.

Ryan Benincasa: 10:06

I also and we talked, we talked about this before we went live over here, but I just want to say again, I watched it with my wife and she Uh, she loved it as well. And you know, she kind of gets sick of me sometimes talking about all this MMT stuff. And so I just found it to be, you know, it makes the the topic very approachable to those who who may not be as, you know, economics or you know, finance inclined, so, ya know, amazing film and and definitely want for the masses.

Unknown: 10:43

Thanks so much. Yeah, that was definitely my goal is to reach a mainstream audience. So not folks who already know about MMT, necessarily, even though they're such an important group. But um, yeah, we really, you know, that's been a really good test, like, we went to Ben to film festival, this Mother's and you know, there was a big audience there of just clearly general audience of people who had never heard about NMT before. And yet, you know, they, and it really clicked and they're really absorbed. And, you know, because there have, there's always, you know, everyone experiences these questions. It's a fundamental political question, I think, one that we all have to grapple with, when we're voting, you know, is, you know, understanding the national debt, what is the national debt, we've heard about it our whole lives, it's a terrible burden on our grandchildren, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and but everyone's like, in the back of their minds are like, Is it really because, you know, nothing bad is exactly happened like that. We've been warned for decades and decades and decades. And, you know, and we also know, on the other hand, that, you know, really the government prints the money, right, or, quote, unquote, or, you know, that's where the money comes from. On some level, people understand that they know that. And so there are two very contradictory things, you know, it's like, what is the national debt then? And so I think people are surprisingly very open to it, they want to know about it something they care about, you know, some people, it's one of their biggest issues that they vote around, or especially, you know, in 2008 2012, you know, 2012 election, this stuff was just huge. I mean, it established the Tea Party is, you know, so much. I mean, this is not just to, you know, that, you know, just for walks, this is, I think, for everyday people, and it's kind of essential, essential understandings, just to think about as a society, what's possible, and what can we really afford, in terms of our real limits, not kind of the limits, we've been told in terms of money or the national debt, there are certainly limits, right, but they're very different. I think, then what the common understanding is right, or that we're told on every political debate, so yes, please come out. And even if I've even been told by folks who have been studying MMT, for a long time, that they still got something new out of the film, you know, or still, some things clicked differently or, you know, visualizing things differently. Right. So this is the first time we're really trying to visualize some of these concepts. So, so yes, hopefully, it can be a tool.

Adam Rice: 13:00

Definitely. What What would you say? You know, I know you said, the, the response has been pretty consistent across the board. How would you summarize that response for people who are you know, like, enthused by the movie and excited about because I imagine, you know, at least in my experience, a lot of people, their brain kind of just turns off when it comes to MMT. And they're not interested for whatever reason, but people that are very interested in it tend to be, you know, tend to develop an interest in continually. No, stay interested in MMT. How would you describe like the audience reception to the film in general?

Unknown: 13:39

Yeah, it's a good question. You know, and I'm not sure it's like, do you follow up with folks, right, and years later, and be like, dude, how did this impact your life now? I mean, I do keep hearing back from people that, you know, that it's changed the way they think about money. And now that when they watch the news, they look at it in a very different perspective, you know, and they're like, you know, they're like, they continue to think about it, it's stuck with them. And again, these are folks that haven't heard of MMT before. And so that's what's really gratifying is just general folks who say, this changed my perspective. And it is, it's the old kind of cliche, saying that maybe comes from Warren Moser. It's like, once you see it, you can't unsee it. So I'm hoping, yeah, I'm hoping this film, like if people see it enough, you know it, it'll start impacting every, every time you hear on the news about the government shutdown or debt ceiling, or what can we afford? We can't find the money or how are you going to pay for it? You know, interest rates, inflation, everything, right? Hopefully, this gives you a different foundation, a different perspective, to think about those those issues and maybe question them differently, or figure out what your own opinion is about them. So I think, you know, obviously, for some people, it's going to drive you down a road that maybe all of us when town, which was being like, wanting to know everything we can about it, and really digging into to all of it are going to watch the hundreds of hours of podcasts and videos that are online and great articles and books, you know, you can get really into this stuff. Or if it's just you watch one movie and that's it. I think either way is maybe fine. But But yeah, so so it's for everyone and I hope, you know, We're certainly hoping to to interject ourselves into this conversation in an election year, you know, hopefully, if the timing is right, if we get kind of lucky, we can break into the mainstream narrative and public discourse around, you know, in an election year where we're talking about the national debt, and what can we afford, in terms of government spending and programs, especially towards climate change and inequality, and any other challenges, you know, major challenges we're facing now? So? So the question is, you know, can we get some traction this year, can we make it, you know, a big enough event, get people out to theaters, where we start to break into the mainstream press, and the public discourse. So that's, that's, I think, really a goal. But you know, a lot of it, I think, will depend on word of mouth, too. So everyone just kind of watching the film, telling your friend, telling a family member or multiple ones that can go enormously far. And so that's what I'm really hoping for is word of mouth, recommending it to your friends. And so you never know, it can kind of take off on its own, hopefully, fingers crossed. And you know, hopefully, eventually it will be after our theatrical release. And then digital rental, the plan is to hopefully get to what they call a VOD, or you know, on on the internet, on YouTube, and that sort of thing, so that you can tell anyone in the world to watch it. Hopefully, not too, not too long.

Adam Rice: 16:36

Definitely. Well, that's very exciting. Would love would love to go into questions, you know, about the making the film specifically, I know, Ryan has a few written down. And he'd love to ask you, Ryan, you wanna you want to jump into it?

Ryan Benincasa: 16:50

I guess first thing? So, um, I'm just kind of curious. I know, you know, we have some Finance, Financial Markets, people that listen to this podcast and stuff. So I'm kind of curious about the, like, how do you how does the whole you know, financing of a documentary like this work? Do you? Do you have to, like, you have an idea and you go to you find people to put up money for it? Or? And like how, without getting into numbers or anything else? Just kind of just a overview of how that markets are the works?

Unknown: 17:28

Yeah, if there is one, very bootstrapped. And maybe I should have talked to you guys first, but because I'm not in the finance world. And so you know, the first way I raise money was through crowdfund campaign, in I guess, it was March of 2020. So really great. I mean, it was literally like the weekend, we were shutting down. But maybe it wasn't the worst timing, like people were really supportive, you know, and engaged. And I was like, Oh, God, no one has any money anymore, you know, the stock market just crashed. And so, so that was then. But, you know, so I'd shot for that year, and just managed to edit together a teaser. So I had a four minute teaser, when that's when I raised the first little bit of funds from crowdfunding. And then, you know, applying for lots of grants, we got like, one, you know, pick pitch, they call it doc pitch. And then, and then we ended up getting private investors and folks who are interested in the subject. And then, yeah, that's, that's kind of the main trajectory, you know, donation. So. So it was very bootstrap though. And that's why, you know, I kind of did it on a shoot very shoestring budget. This is not a, you know, this is not a studio back or anything back on, it's very independent. So yeah, I wouldn't recommend it necessarily, you know, it'd be much better if you just have the money and go make it. But again, this was my first directive film as well. So it's not exactly easy to have someone hands you a large chunk of change and trust that you're going to actually finish this thing because a million films get started, they don't get finished. But But today, you know, like, you know, a lot of content is coming out, it is getting easier to produce films kind of on your own. But the technology is more and more accessible. But it is a it is an endeavor. I have to say that, like, I can't recommend it actually.

Ryan Benincasa: 19:23

Well, that's amazing. I you know, you couldn't even tell because I thought that the production quality was great. Without without giving away details. I thought the the scene where you introduce Moser was was was the best. I loved the whole, like, kind of backdrop and everything. I thought that was that was cool. Very well done.

Douglas Padgett: 19:41

Yeah, the visuals are beautiful down there. So yeah.

Ryan Benincasa: 19:46

Yeah, that's also so interesting that it was March 2020. Because that was basically my, you know, personal moment of like, okay, clearly, you know, I work in the financial markets, and clearly I don't have sufficient understanding of how this all works, because this all seems impossible to me. Right? That, you know, that, Oh, we can just, you know, past 2 trillion in spending into legislation and, you know, despite what some may tell you, interest rates actually went to zero when we did that, so it's, I just I thought to myself at the time, like, Okay, I need to take a step back and get a better understanding of, of how this all works. Because basically everything that I would have expected to happen. Didn't didn't happen. So. So yeah, that is funny that that's yeah, that's, that's definitely a an important important period, I think, for a lot of introspection about how the things actually work. Another another question I have is, and again, you're ostensibly, you know, kind of in the, in the business of telling a story, right? And, like, what have you? How do we sort of, like what's needed for, you know, communications wise, in order for us to be somewhat critical of people in power, mainstream orthodox economists, etc? Without sounding like, crazy conspiracy theorists basically.

Unknown: 21:27

Yeah. Like, like,

Ryan Benincasa: 21:29

what are the stories that you have found, you know, are effect and are effective? And that because clearly, logic doesn't always work with people. So?

Unknown: 21:41

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And you're right, I think, you know, Warren Mosler, I think maybe, you know, so logical. And in the 90s, you said, Here, I'm just going to present this logic, and everyone should get it in a day and change, you know, change what they're doing, and change the way things work. And that didn't exactly happen. So sometimes it does take more than logic, or it takes really holding people's hands through the logic, but I think it does come down to to story and storytelling, like that's, that's what needs to change is the story we tell about money, and where it comes from, and what it is, because that's what's really ingrained. And I think that's when I go through, that's really the core of the conflict. Like when I went around, I tried to interview as many mainstream economists as I could to understand, you know, just where do they, you know, tell me where MMT goes wrong, like, tell me, where in the description of the monetary system, do they go wrong? And why and, you know, please, and I just couldn't find anyone who could give me that, that, you know, a precise description of where they go wrong, or, you know, it was always just platitudes. And, you know, oh, well, MMT says, you know, you can print infinite amounts of money, and you'll never cause inflation and never have any bad things happen. And it's like, I mean, if that's not what MMT is saying, which I haven't seen them ever say that, then that's not really a helpful critique. So give me a helpful critique. You know, I think you saw the, you know, the, the best I got was maybe George selgin, who, you know, lives in a very different, maybe, political realm, or political preferences. But, you know, accepts starts with the foundation, like accepting the MMT is an accurate description of the way the monetary system works, and then coming up with some critiques on top of that, and, and that we, we need to be looking at real resources and what, you know, what can we really afford in terms of real resources? And how much is really available? And that's a critique, but I think it's not, you know, it's actually where MMT would like the debate to go to move to, there is a lot of valid debate that can happen around, let's analyze, you know, what are we what is our real resource capacity? And what do we want to use? You know, what do we think is the sustainable use of our resources today, in terms of saving some for future generations? What have you, you know, there's a lot of debates that can happen in that sphere, a lot of political debate, and where our priorities are, that's very valid debates, but MMT is just saying, you know, here, here are the limits, here's how the system, you know, functions, and then there's so much left to politics and what our preferences are, because you couldn't be an you know, extremist, authoritarian and have certain priorities, and you or you could be another another side and have different priorities. So, So anyhow, so where was I going with all this? What was the question?

Ryan Benincasa: 24:29

Can you remind me just about like, the most effective stories and how we can sound and, and how we can, you know, be critical without sounding like crazed conspiracy theorists,

Unknown: 24:40

right, communicating it. So like the, the core of the conflict for me when, when it came down to it, interviewing the mainstream economist was just this divergence in an understanding of where money comes from and what money is. And so the story we tell about money itself, you know, I just, it just does seem to go back to this, this feeling on the story we're kind of born with in this culture at least that like money is gold or money should be gold or money should be real and tangible and has value in and of itself and we hate the idea that money it could be paper or could be, you know, printed on something worthless. As or, or controlled by the government. You know, it's kind of like, so much of it actually comes down to the ideology of free market, private free market, quote unquote, versus government, you know, this kind of dichotomy, you know, this, this, this kind of conflict between those two things. And I think the really important story that MMT reveals is that they're, you know, they're intricately interdependent to and the story, you know, what comes first is kind of an important facet in order, you know, how can we have functioning markets, if we don't first have some form of political body and establishment of law, and enforcement of laws and private property, in the establishment then of a money and a monetary system and taxation, without all those things first, you know, you just you don't have a market. So with, you know, you need all those things, then you can have a market already, then you can have money, then you could have a market, and yet that story that's told, you know, in the economics books, at least, I think, in the minds of most economists alive today is that, you know, the market comes first, the market is the, you know, the fundamental force of the economy is natural is a natural system, and is a naturally balancing system. And the government is just an intrusion, and intrusion upon this natural system, and we'd all be better off if the government just was more hands off, you know, more laissez faire, right? So, so if we're questioning all of that, I think, you know, it just comes back to again, the nature of money, in the minds is money and object, like gold, that you have to go out in the world and find dig up out of the ground before you can use it, you know, before the government can use it, or is money more this accounting tool, right, and an organizing tool, a, a ledger of accounting, that helps us move the real resources of a society to distribute and organize the real resources of society towards a political goal. Those are two very different concepts of what money is. And that's, I think, the root of the conflict. And that comes down to the story we tell about money. And I think, when I went out to search, it was like, every, every time there was an issue, it seems to go back to that story of, well, is money, something you have to go out and find and dig out of the ground? Or is it not? And that, that, that seems to be what everything kind of goes back to?

Adam Rice: 27:36

Yeah, I love that you brought in, you know, several, and it wasn't just, you know, any mainstream economist, but we're talking like very high profile, mainstream economists, which I think is an important thing to do. And I don't want to give too much away. But that, you know, those interviews were actually some of my favorite parts of the film. Because, you know, as someone who's like, very familiar with MMT, I think he did a great job of explaining MMT. And, you know, adding things like the visualizations of what you know, what it is that we're talking about when we explained them empty. But I loved that you had an opportunity to just point blank, ask these big time economists like Jason Furman, and like Jared Bernstein, you know, about their thoughts on MMT. Because you don't often see people get a chance to do that. And I think it's important to give them a chance to, you know, rebut MMT on the spot if they disagree with it. And I thought, you know, just their responses alone. It illustrates there's like a big gap in the mainstream understanding of, of, you know, monetary operations, the monetary system in general. And what MMT is saying, and I thought that was, those were very powerful clips from him.

Unknown: 28:48

Yeah, great. Yeah. No, I think for me, for me to like that, because that was a big question. For me coming in, it's just, you know, do they like part of, you know, sometimes you hear, is it possible that they really don't understand or haven't come across these these concepts? Or, you know, haven't kind of dealt with these fundamental contradictions that seem apparent in their theory? And so my big question, you know, sometimes you wonder is, like, do they know, and it's just a conspiracy? And like, they don't want us to know, where money comes from? And, you know, that, yeah, this kind of conspiratorial aspect? Or like, is there some kind of fundamental misunderstanding or disagreement? Or what is it? You know, what's at the root of this, this conflict that we see playing out on Twitter every day? And so, so, from those interviews, you know, this is a big question I had, and definitely the conclusion I came to and the feeling I came away with, after the interviews was that it's not a conspiracy, it it is more of a misunderstanding, or disagreement on the level of ideas. And so that, again, it just goes back to the story of money that I was just referring to, as, you know, can we understand, you know, is money gold, or is it something manmade, you know, is it is it as does money exist in nature? Or is it a human construct and in such a way, like, how is it who has agency over it, who, you know, what is the politics around it? And that's what makes a lot more sense is that money and is created by us is a political institution. And I think that's really empowering. At the end of the day, you know, I think a lot of people come away sometimes when they think, Oh, we don't want, you know, even the Bitcoin, the cryptocurrency movements, all of this is trying to like, almost remove money from the hands of, of government or of politics, you know, hoping that we can have some kind of natural system where money just, you know, exists separate from from politics and somehow manages to function and manages to create a perfectly balancing economy where we're all provided for, you know, through the laws of supply and demand somehow, I don't know, but, but I think it's actually very empowering. When you understand that money is political and that in a democracy, then we all get to have a say in, you know, how it functions and who, you know, who should benefit and who, you know, what our goals are for just for using money as a tool for what we actually want. You know, money is not the, the objective, I think money is the the organizing tool to create the world that we actually want to see in terms of how we're provided for in our daily lives. And, you know, just our quality of life and well being is, is so much dependent on that. So yes, so I hope people do come away, you know, empowered and hopeful for an inspired from the film, that that that money isn't out of our hands, you know that it is up to us to decide how we want the system to function. And that we do have the tools and the capacity to address these big challenges in front of us from climate change and inequality. That is not hopeless, that we're not, you know, powerless in the face of money. And money is just this, you know, inevitable force. And this is just this is the only way it is there's an alternative. All these things were kind of told, I think, and our imaginations are so constrained by the neoliberal kind of mainstream theories of of economics really served to constrain our imagination of, of what's possible, and especially for alternatives. And in that way, you could almost say it does feel like a conspiracy that, that the mainstream wants to say, you know, don't change anything, it's working fine. For the folks who are doing well now. But there are alternatives. Right?

Adam Rice: 32:25

Yeah, I'm on the topic of conspiracy. And I think this is what Ryan was getting at. It's like, you know, anytime you start talking about the fed with someone, and then especially when you start talking about how, Oh, these, you know, this army of PhDs from Harvard, you know, these economists, they're all wrong. Like, it's a very, it is a very, very hard message to get across to people without sounding crazy. Yeah. But I think, you know, and that, again, going back to the clips with the, with the Orthodox economists in the in the film, I think that really helped, you know, make the case for MMT. And I think that was a very important aspect to include.

Unknown: 33:04

Yeah, no, I mean, it's a huge I mean, that's the thing is, because especially today, with climate with COVID, you know, we are we it is important to trust experts, a lot of times right or sign, right. Yeah. Right. So it's like in our society, like, you know, how we're, there's so many conspiracies around climate too, and COVID. And we don't trust the scientists, we don't trust the experts. So in those aspects, we're saying, trust the experts, like they know what they're talking about. And then over here, we have to say, oh, actually don't trust these PhD experts from Harvard in economics. And it's like, how are people supposed to figure this out? I mean, it's kind of awful. But so I don't really know the answer to that except to say, maybe trust real scientists and economists are not scientists, no offense. I think that's a big, I think it's a big advantage we have over the last 15 years, as every one of these economists has had to make some sort of call, we've had so many major transitions, economic transitions, we had the great financial crisis in 2007 2008, we had COVID, right? We had all the Harvard economists and every economist telling us if you hold interest rates to zero, you're gonna get runaway inflation, but yet you had MMT are saying, if you hold interest rates to zero, you're not going to get any inflation at all, because you got it backwards. And then everyone was saying that, you know, that we were going to hit a recession in 2023. Because the higher interest rates, and it was the exact opposite. And you have all these economist who have made these calls that you don't even have to just argue with them that they're wrong, you can sit there and say, look, you've been wrong. We have the receipts, you've put it out there, you've tweeted this stuff out for the last 10 years and we're gonna hold you accountable to this because this is what you're saying you consistently get it wrong. And yet you get to sit in these chairs with big titles. You know, what, what gives here what gives? And at some, anyway, you're not UK listeners can't see this, but she's nodding her head, right. So I'll let her jump in here and, and have her take her shots to at what seems to be the absurdity of of economists getting things wrong for 15 years? Well, or much longer. I mean, 13 years because I have been an adult for 20 some odd years and for the 20 some odd years that I've been in adult, every single economist that has been At any, anywhere close to a policy lever just doesn't understand not only what's going to happen, not happen tomorrow, but a year from now, five years from now, nothing they've projected has come out the right way. And it's only been the MMT crowd that seems to have a grasp on what the future might bring, given the policy choices that get enacted. I know, I mean, you have to wonder, like, does it matter? Like does being right matter? Because somehow economics is like insulated from being right or wrong, or, you know, having being accurate in any way, shape or form? It's like, right, I mean, even Christine Lagarde, whatever her name is, like, just yesterday, or whatever it was on Twitter, it's like, she's, there's such a click, and they're insulated from, from any kind of critique really on the outside. And I don't know what's allowed that to happen over the years, but you know, it is it doesn't feel to me more like, you know, a religion or a priesthood and a lot of ways where you just have to believe, you know, it's, it doesn't matter what the empirical evidence shows, or what the data shows, they just go back to the models that don't reflect reality. And so, like, I have no answer for that. I mean, like, I do not understand how you could be wrong, infinite amounts of time and still, like fail up, right? I mean, it's the definition of failing up, you just get promoted and promoted and promoted until your chief economist for the President. And so like, I mean, I can't think like, that doesn't happen in the real sciences, you know, are in you know, in the natural sciences, you can't be wrong that many times and still be respective. And so I don't have an answer for that, except that, like, they just put really complicated math on top of faulty assumptions, and then say, Oh, it's too difficult for you to understand, just don't bother, like, you just have to listen to me, you just have to trust me, because you don't understand this is too complicated. And so that's where I think that's the only installation I think they have. And so I think if more people understand the basics in a way, then they can feel empowered to question the the experts, because it's like, let's go back to the simple assumptions. If you're not getting the simple assumptions, right, then you're really complicated math on top isn't necessarily really relevant or helpful. So, so but I think they like to stay in the, in the complicated math here on top and not go back to the foundational assumptions. But that's where we have to question them on is like, really, like, five year old questions like that people can understand and ask is, what is money? Where does it come from? How, you know, how was it recorded? And so, yeah, and so I don't know how that's going to change or how we can hold them accountable. You know, I think it's maybe up to all of us, but it is a it is a momentous change that needs to happen. And, like a lot of you know, Randy Ray, I mean, he has very little hope of, of the economist changing. So that's why MMT decided, you know, they tried to talk to their peers, you know, in the economics profession and say, hey, you know, here's, here's all this other stuff, here's all this other evidence, let's rewrite the textbooks, and no one wanted to take them up on that. And they got the most, you know, the most resistance is always from their, their peers in the field of economics, whereas, you know, if we take it outside, that's where people are willing to, to entertain these ideas and make a shift. And so I think, you know, that's why the film is important. Like other people, we all kind of have to talk to economists and say, Hey, like, can you guys please start focusing your efforts on something that's relevant and accurate? Like, there's so much work that I think like, I don't really know what the job description of an economist is, like, what? What are they supposed to do? I don't, I don't know. I mean, I can understand that you're, you're Trading and Markets, or you're advising a president, but I don't understand what's in between that, you know. And so economists go if they can't make it in markets, and they can't make it anywhere else, they become economists because they can still get a paycheck and have no accountability. Yeah.

Ryan Benincasa: 39:18

Warren Buffett has had a lot like a couple of years ago, the Berkshire Hathaway Hathaway shareholder meeting where he was like, any company that has an economist on the payroll has one employee to many,

Unknown: 39:30

if that makes sense. I have been wondering that for a while. I'm like, what, what is useful about your, you know, inaccurate models that you could ever use in the real world? So yeah, so that makes a whole lot of sense is if you don't have a business case for your profession, you know, economists like to tell us, you know, get retrained. Right, like so, but, I mean, I think there's a lot of roles for accountants, you know, like people who know how to do accounting and, and that's it but economists skip over accounting, they like look down on accounting, as you know, and, and I think so much of MMT is just look at the real accounting, go back to accounting. Look, you know, look at the the numbers in the balance sheets, and you won't get so lost, if you remember to look at the dang balance sheet. So, so yeah, I think there's a huge role of, you know, economists at the Fed You know, we need more economist CBO with the Fed who are studying or, you know, analyzing real resources and real resource capacity. And you know, what we don't if we do this policy, how much could that affect inflation through looking at a lot of intricate ways of the real world and real resource processing, but like, the models they do today, like, leave out all of that, or leave out the real resources and capacity and inflationary impacts, all of that is ignored. It's just how much it how many dollars? And how much does that add to the debt? And that's it. That's the only thing they analyze. It's like, I this was not useful. So. So I think there are useful things that economists can do, and hopefully they can just need some slight retraining. They can.

Adam Rice: 40:59

Yeah, it's, we and we've talked about this a lot. How, you know, so many people try to strawman. MMT is saying, oh, MMT, you know, doesn't care about inflation says inflation is not a problem. When you know, on the contrary, in reality, MMT is putting inflation at the forefront of

Ryan Benincasa: 41:16

the most hawkish on inflation.

Adam Rice: 41:18

You know, it's saying that economists and, you know, policymakers should be focusing on the inflationary impact before any kind of budgetary impact, the budgetary impact is secondary to the inflationary impact. And it's just it that that point, I don't know, I just, I can't drive that point home enough, because I don't know how this straw man still exists, that MMT doesn't care about inflation.

Unknown: 41:42

Seriously, it is a good question. You know, I mean, they should call it call themselves, the inflation hawks instead, maybe they'd get some attention. You know, it's like, we're the inflation hawks, you know, and, I mean, because deficit hawk around, what does that mean? So MMT should stick out the position that they're the inflation hawks, and they're the most concern and that they think, you know, we should be studying it way more and, and, you know, really, really being careful about any policy proposal that, you know, what are its inflationary impacts? And how can we can we minimize those? So? So yeah, there's a ton of work to do there. And I think that's an important, important rebranding, maybe that could. That's fine. I want to jump in, you had mentioned accounting, and I have a question that we'll get to accounting is the most exciting question imaginable, especially on an audio podcast. But first, I just gotta applaud you the film was great. And we talked about taking a more scientific approach to economics when there's no scientific approach to economics out there. And I felt like I was watching like a Carl Sagan cosmos. Like, it really felt like I was watching a documentary that was really trying to explain the real world. And it was like, I mean, the documentary came off as a very enjoyable to watch, almost like scientific communicate, communicating, documentary. And it was just, it was so good. I thought one of the things that was just absolutely best about it amongst me, because you had to accomplish a lot of things all at once to get it to work, which is yet explain what the heck MMT is, you had explained why it even matters, which you don't understand why it matters until you understand why it matters, right? So I mean, you got it you got to be in and then on top of that, you have to actually make a compelling film that people want to sit through and watch and get one you weaved it perfectly. One of the questions I that I want to get to with accounting is I thought I don't give too much away about the film, I thought the coolest part was the graphics that explain the accounting of NMT empty because the the minute you pull out, I mean, I'll do my live streams, I'll do my YouTube channels. And I can see when viewers turn off and you know, when they turn off is when I pull up my pen, and I say hey, we're gonna we're gonna do some we're gonna some balance sheets, we're gonna do we're gonna do some T accounts here. Assets and liabilities. And, you know, all of a sudden, I have no retention left. But but my, you know, my mind when I've had visualized in my head, how this is all happening, and you hopefully it's okay to give this away. But you use almost like this this particle thing, right? You have a plus and a minus, and then there's little stream connecting the particles. So you can visualize this all happening in real time. I was absolutely brilliant. I think that's always what's going on my mind. Did you think that through ahead of time? I mean, did you know that the accounting would be a difficult thing to explain in a movie format. I really thought it was the coolest part. I know, I'm like probably the only geek that thinks that. But I really that was like, the best part that this movie is doing such a great job explaining the accounting because it's so important to understand the accounting if if you're going to understand, you know, how this thing actually works in total, so yeah, yeah, no, great question. And thank you, but yeah, I think, I think just, you know, I think all of this has always been in, in literature and in reading books, and you know, all this. So it's like, you're visualizing something in your mind and maybe I'm, you know, everyone has a different different learning, you know, some people are more visual learners. So, I guess I was just always envisioning it that way and not always, I think, a major revelation for me was reading a book where they just very explicit and I think, I guess it was Felix Martin's book, I forget was called now something money but And when he said, you know, just very explicitly was like money always has two sides, you know, and that just really stuck with me as this as a visual thing. And as such an important nature of money. Like if that's when where you get lost if you start thinking that money is an object is a lump of gold, and it's just a medium of exchange, or is a commodity itself. If you instead think of money, as always having two sides, like always kind of an almost like a magnetic force, you know, or like, like, it's like a plus and a minus, for me, like, there's always a credit and a debt, there's always an asset and a liability, and you have that balance. You know, what, for me remembering that, that sort of, you know, any financial instrument, it always has two sides on the balance sheet, right? There's, there's an asset and a liability, as long as you don't forget that. And as long as you're able to then trace that asset and that liability that are kind of connected through an umbilical cord or so you know, some kind of magnetic energetic force, you know, you can see the the credit traveling through the economy, and who's holding the line, where's the liability being held that can transfer as well, you know, but somehow, they're always still revolving around each other, and then then you can trace it, then you can track it, then you can say, this is what's going on, you know, it's accounting. So if you, if you're, if your numbers don't add up, in the end, you did something wrong, right? So. So as long as you stick to them, it would just be a huge shift. If instead of when someone says money, like what do you visualize? You know, are you visualizing a lump of golden egg or a gold coin? You know, or are you visualizing this, you know, this plus and minus that the two sides like, don't forget that money has two sides? Who had who's holding it, who's holding the asset? who's holding the liability? If we just remember that, I think that would be a huge shift in how we understand money and the economy and kind of everything. So. So yeah, if that's the new visualization that we can use when whenever someone says the word money, I think that that could go somewhere. And that's what really stuck with me was that kind of Revelation. Once I once I read that once, once, that was a major click, you know, one of those clicks, clicking moments for me. Yeah, it's

Adam Rice: 47:23

it's funny you say that, because when I was first, you know, digging into MMT years ago, one of the things that stuck with me is when Warren Mosler talks about the government making social security payments, and he says, How do they make those payments, they, you know, all they do is they mark up, you know, the balance in your bank account on a keyboard, essentially. And he said, it's not like, you know, someone with a gold coin is sitting there and hammering the gold coin into the computer, and then you, and that's your gold coin. It's like, it's just marking numbers up in account. That's how government spending works. And that always stuck with me. And I think, and Ryan, and I talk about this all the time, it's just, for some reason, the idea that there's like this double entry accounting, and that all spending is income, you know, all all assets or liabilities at the same time. Even people who work in finance, they don't, they don't seem to get that. Like if money is spent, then it's just gone. And that's just that's not how it works.

Unknown: 48:19

Right. Right. No, and that was a big question for me. And maybe for you guys, who is like, yeah, how do you think, you know, even I talked to some people on Wall Street, I'm like, what, you know, what is a treasury bond? Or, you know, sometimes, sometimes they didn't fully think that through or just like, even like, or another or they would say, you know, like, what is the national debt, it's the stock of treasuries that you're holding is your asset. And some of them just didn't even make the leap from, you know, that's what the national debt just literally is. Because most people on Wall Street, they like treasuries really like to hold our men and things like that. And so, yeah, there's a lot of little connections that can be made. And I always wonder, it's, like, it's a question for like, because people in finance, right, they they dedicated their lives to money, and to markets and understanding it. And so I just, I do get confused, like, how could people who have been dedicating their lives to this and you know, kind of doing it every day? Like, what's going on? In terms of like, do they understand the accounting of it? Or what money is like, I don't know how, how you could spend every day of your life working with money and not really kind of understand what it is, I guess, that makes that makes now four of us that are on that exact same podcast right now. You know, we've been we've been I've been doing this kind of applied in a tea approach for a couple years now publicly and kind of aggressively and, and I was in the same boat that Warren Mosler was where I'm like, you know, I was so worried when I finally pieced all this together and that I just give this information out for free and then other people will just run run with it. I wouldn't I wouldn't get you know, my share of it and yeah, and and so you know, you got then you tell people, this is this is what's going to happen, this is exactly how it's gonna happen. And this is how it's going to end up and a year later, it's exactly what happened. How. And instead of being like, wow, you know, this is this makes complete sense. You're still told You're an idiot. You don't understand economics. They said it's not gonna You got lucky. Yeah. Or they'll come up with some, you know, thing that, you know, but what about airline stocks? You didn't get it about airlines talking about, you know, they'll come up with some obscure thing. And I mean, you see this in the, in the documentary where it's like, you know, MMT is just simply stating how, how, you know, money system works. And then all of a sudden, it'll be like, Well, yeah, but MMT doesn't explain, you know, why the sun rises, and it's cool. Yeah. Do you want me to do, what do you want me to do here? And so yeah, even in the finance world, I really thought like, like, God, I've got my one chance to get this, everyone's gonna realize what we've realized. Right? And then and then it's just gonna, you know, the minds are gonna change. And it was fun while it lasted. No, there are very, very few converts care about getting it right, apparently, I mean, they, they don't care about getting I really think part of it, too, though, is, and unfortunately, this sells in politics as much as it sells and finance as much as sales and economics is that fear sells, right. And if you can, if you can paint a picture, look, if we do this, the outcome is going to be terrible, we better not do this. And whether that is taking action on you know, some of the social things that you've talked about, or, or just even, you know, investing your money and sound companies that have grills from a finance standpoint, whatever it might be, if there's someone that's like, Yeah, but you know, what might end up happening is we might get hit by an asteroid, and then we're all broke, you know, something like that. And then the, you know, in this case, if the government debt gets too big, you never know. Right? Right. And that's, you know, you don't want to become Weimar Germany, we all learned about that in school, you don't want to become a country that just implodes. And so that fear sells in, that's all you have to do is say, well, it could end up very bad. I do think that is one one element where, you know, economists, politicians, and the finance bros all sell that same fear. Very, very successfully. Yeah, and crypto crypto, you know, like trying to understand the crypto craze. It just stems from the same thing, that same fear based misunderstanding based, you know, I think understanding of money, like, I've always been crying and hyperinflation right, since 2008. Like, hyper, hyper inflation is coming. The the QE QE is the Fed is printing trillions is gonna cause hyperinflation. It's like, they have never been, you know, and then yet, they're like, it could happen. They, they honestly truly believe it could happen tomorrow, it could happen any day. Because we don't know how this is like, you know, because they do think the economy is like this natural, mysterious thing. And, like, they don't understand how it works. So they're like, anything could happen, you know, anything could happen. We don't know, when the, you know, the spirits will just say, up hyperinflation tomorrow, you're done. You know? I mean, there's no backing or you know, or logic behind it, either. It's, you know, so or, you know, all of a sudden in the bond market will turn on you or the, you know, the bond vigilantes, they just don't drop the hat.

Ryan Benincasa: 53:33

Do they keep buying the debt? Yeah,

Unknown: 53:35

it keeps coming out every, you know, every week or every month? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, there's so there's so much there. And yeah, I do have a ton of questions around that. And yeah, even for you, I was curious, you know, it's like, okay, you're telling this, you know, you're giving away the secrets. And it's kind of interesting. It's like, altruistic, like, you're trying to share this, you're trying to help other people make money, even though you think oh, you should be wanting to hoard it for yourself or hoard information. So you can make all the money, you know, but it's so interesting that like, you're trying to share, you're trying to help other people and they're like, No, you're crazy. That's why with the Bitcoin stuff, right, and that the hyperinflation Alright, so since 2008, great financial crisis right afterwards, the response was gonna cause hyperinflation. We've gone from roughly $10 trillion national debt, we're now at over $30 trillion national debt. Right? So 20 trillion and additional national debt. And to show for all of that, right, the big worry is that the dollar was going to collapse and all that sort of stuff. The dollar is up about what 40% Since the low in 2008, right. And the US has spent more than any other developed nation so I mean, out of Europe and and the other developed nations, the US has outspent every other nation by far, probably not enough, but still, by far and yet here we are, no hyperinflation and then the one blip of inflation that maybe they could hold on to evaporated in about 12 months. Evaporated Yeah. And, and so I agree that the hyperinflation that is that I'm still that I'm still waiting on what really sucks to us. I bought into that back in 2008. I really, really thought that that's what was gonna happen. I bought my gold bars. Yeah, I mean, the fear was palpable. Like Me too. Like, I was like, that makes sense. I should buy gold. Yeah, definitely. Like, I was scared. You know, it was like things felt like they were falling apart. And no one knew why. And he doesn't. And no one did except for like, a few random him in Kansas City. Right? Yeah, there were like, five of them in Siberia. Right? And they're like, right, they started to get on Twitter then but you know, no one had heard of them at that point, and like a few people. And so but that was like, the time when they had so much relevant to say, you know, I'm just trying, you know, trying to get themselves out there and be like, Whoa, like, everyone is getting this wrong, especially after 2008. The Hysteria I mean, the debt hysteria, the hyperinflation, hysteria, QE, the conspiracies around the Fed, you know, there's, there's so much to break down, and there was so much and like, it just felt like even the economists were like, This is a total mystery, you know, good luck. Like, we're probably heading towards Armageddon. And then, like, the whole culture became like, very Armageddon focused. I feel like, so I just want to relieve some of that, right? I mean, it's like, do we have to have so much fear around hyperinflation? And that drives you to to Bitcoin and very risky, very risky, speculative investments, like thinking that thinking that you're trying to protect yourself from an incoming disaster? You know, I think, yeah, I really, I think it's really important to, and I don't know how economists get away with predicting this kind of doom, right, you know, doom and gloom, Doom, Arizona, and yet, you know, there's no, there's just no basis for it. Of course, you need to be cautious. And yet, climate change, you know, some real doom in the forecast is irrelevant. So somehow, that'll just be fine. And the economy will only be slightly hindered by a slight, you know, decrease in GDP growth, if we have five degrees Celsius, Celsius warming. As Nordhaus would say, Yeah,

Ryan Benincasa: 57:11

I mean, let me let's talk about that for a sec. Like, if you if there is some sort of really, really, really catastrophic event that happens over the next decade or two is it's climate change related and, and there's something that where that actually destroys the physical sort of capital stock of the country, right, that you can absolutely have a situation where, where inflation goes up a lot, because you literally have this supply shock, because your, your real productive capacity, just got, you know, a big chunk of it just got wiped out. overnight. I mean, I think with with Weimar Germany, my understanding is like, you know, basically overnight, you had the the Rhineland or whatever, where they had, I think it's from getting it, right, that had like a huge, you know, part of the country's GDP, where they did a lot of kind of industrial activity around there and stuff, and then boom, overnight, I think, I don't remember exactly what happened, but it will, but they lost like 70% of their GDP basically, overnight. Like, that is a real thought, well, real supply shocks, that's a real supply shock. And so that is something where that can actually lead to literal inflation. And, and that is a real risk that has to be you know, that we, that we have to factor into when we think about, you know, models and projections for the for the country.

Adam Rice: 58:47

Well, the the sad thing about that is we just lived through it with the pandemic, and everyone is still blaming, you know, government spending. Like, suddenly, you know, we have zero interest rates forever. For, you know, since the financial crisis, we get this crazy pandemic that blows up the world economy, and everyone looks at the government spending as the cause for the price increases and not, you know, the real resource issues we're all facing. So I don't know what's going to take to change that. I really don't. Yeah,

Unknown: 59:20

well, that needs to change. But yeah, I thought a pandemic that shut the entire global economy down, would have changed the mindset of people. But as it turns out, I know that's, that doesn't change the mindset of people. That's why I don't think I could ever be an economist because you can argue in circles, never get anywhere. You know, so it just because it is it's like theory, it's so you know, you're not debating something real necessarily. So you can talk in circles and disagree forever. So it is frustrating, or it's politics. You know, I like to say economics is really just at its root politics. That's it, like there is no other field there. And a lot of ways, you know, it's made up, it's whatever we decide we want it to be. But I think like, you know, talking about supply shocks, like in the film, you know, we kind of say like climate change is the biggest risk to inflation looking forward. I mean, there are big risks. And so I think the ironic thing is, you know, the Great Depression, that the 2008 global financial crisis, all of those were not real shocks, right? Like, there was, like the Great Depression, an asteroid didn't hit the, you know, America, and we all of a sudden lost tons of our labor force and our real resources, like, it was just a random stock market crash and, and like, just like, you know, the how the the function of the monetary system stopped functioning very well. And that's kind of the energetic flow of the economy, like the, you know, what we need to keep the everyone you know, functioning, but like, we didn't lose any real capacity there. And we never had to have such a terrible depression a terrible time where people starve. Did you know where it's such high unemployment, so many problems, like we could have always recovered from that very quickly, the government could have always spent what it needed to and could have spent a lot more than it even did with a new deal. I mean, right? FDR was on the right track, starting to spend, and hire people and employ people. And do it, like so much was accomplished from its infrastructure was built them, right, that was still used today. And so it's like, you know, seeing it through that lens is just so ironic that that was just purely a monetary problem, it was not a real resource problem. We had the same amount of people, as we did in the roaring 20s. You know, when the economy was doing fine, there was no, there was no real shift. And so people just, and people still today are like, you know, what caused the depression? Yeah, it's like, it's, it's pretty clear. And it's pretty clear, the government could have spent a lot more to hire all those people and build a better world that we you know, that we could be living, you know, building even more infrastructure that we could be using today, the real wealth of a nation, you know, is what you build. And what you leave to future generations is, yeah, the real capital, you've built, the houses, the infrastructure, the technology, the knowledge, the universities, the research capacity, you know, all of that is what you leave. And so, you know, that's what you lose, if you if you if you're not investing, you know, public investment in Dr. Arts, all of those things. And so, we saw in World War Two, that we could ramp up all that spending, and instead that, you know, the economy recovered, we had full employment and World War Two, but it wasn't to build a better country for ourselves or the world, you know, it wasn't to build something better is to go bomb and destroy Europe. And so, and elsewhere, and so, you know, it's just so ironic, all these things, but now I feel like it same thing with the global financial crisis, it was just a financial problem. And Warren Moser Rowley say, that's easily solved, that can be easily solved through fiscal spending, and other things. But, and, of course, you know, the real problems in the housing market, there was a lot of fraud and and all that that should have been regulated. But, you know, looking forward, I do think the ironic thing is, economists are always talking about, like, how can we get economic growth? How can we get economic growth, they're trying so hard for it, it's like a mystery to this, like, well, just spend more, you know, like, and also, you know, invest and spend more. But now, I think we're getting to a phase where it's like, we do, like economic growth should be the really easy part. Like that should be the easy part, the hard part now is looking at, you know, how do we actually live within planetary boundaries, and still have increasing quality of life and well being on this planet, and without causing issues that do undermine our real capacity, you know, there's this concept of overshoot, you know, we could very easily overshoot the capacity of the planet, and all of a sudden you have climate change, you have a lot of natural disasters that destroy, you know, our real capital and, and the amount of people that can actually survive on the planet, then, you know, it's like, if we start destroying our real resources, then we are creating conditions where there's going to be major problems, inflation would definitely be one of them. And so, you know, if you start destroying your real productive capacity or your real resources, that's when you you run out of problems and economic growth will be much harder in that kind of, I think, environment. Right.

Adam Rice: 1:04:17

So well said very well said, Mark. Oh, sorry. I wanted to ask you. So I know you started making the film before the pandemic. And then obviously, you know, the pandemic occurs, and we have this inflationary episode that no one's seen in 3040 years. How did that? How did that affect the filmmaking process?

Unknown: 1:04:39

Yeah, I mean, it's, I guess, I've just kind of slowed it down a little bit. But I was, you know, because I was I was trying to follow everything was going on, or, you know, I probably would have shot more and traveled a little more and did you know, did more shooting but I decided, okay, well, I guess I've got enough. Maybe, you know, as I don't know, it's the first film I guess. I was like, I think this is enough material. So I'm going to try to start editing and so that's when I really just moved into the editing phase and continued to collect material and then I did do some more interviews once the pandemic settled down a bit more, a few more supplementary interviews and but yeah, it was a long editing process of trying to figure out out and trying to figure out how to edit myself and having help from others. And like you said, it's just it's such a puzzle to kind of tell this story in a way that's compelling. And you know, and like, I was always trying to find the right order, you know, it's so tricky. I was like, You should be able to like, just outline it and be like, Okay, this makes sense. On paper. This is a good outline on paper. But like, when you actually start getting into it, I would have I had each scene kind of edited, and in a way to a certain extent, each scene, and then it was just a matter of like, moving the order around like a puzzle. So many times, there's kind of an infinite amount of different orders that you could try them in. And it was very surprising, like, how many different orders could almost work like that? There is no just like one order that the story should be told them. But so it's really just trial and error, trying to figure out what fits what feels right. What makes logical sense, but I guess it was just a feeling of like, finally things falling into place that man, it took a long time, constant reordering. But you know, I gotta tell you, I think you did a great job on that whole part i is someone who I'm not a filmmaker, by any means, but exactly, exactly. What it's so it's so hard, because there always are those things where I'm like, I'm gonna tell you about this in the future, you have to know this piece that I haven't told you about yet. But I still have to tell you this part right now. And it is so difficult. And I it is a it is a tough story to tell. And again, I to anyone who has anyone, you know, you want to get more involved in economics and understand economics, it is gonna be an awesome awesome movie to point people to for that exact reason. Because you absolutely nailed it with that part right there to get people to understand the money story from beginning to end, tell, tell a compelling story, make it watchable, and then also never lose them along the way where they can understand. Okay, what the heck's happening here with this? Economics balance sheet stuff? No, yeah, you did it, you did a great job. And I can tell I could tell, I didn't want to tell too, as well. Not only a great filmmaker, but to just the intelligence to grasp. It's your it's amazing that you directed, edited, and also learn them and to along the way, with the precision to tell the story the way you did, because there was never a time where I'm like, Yeah, I don't know about that. It was always just just right on point throughout. And I applaud you for just the amazing job you did to weave the narrative, without without dropping a beat on the actual facts of the underlying content. Thank you so much. Yeah. And yeah, I felt like I had a, I had to have the best grasp I could before I started and, but it was definitely a learning process throughout too. And you know, it's kind of the best way to learn is to teach to so, you know, it's like, how do you communicate? How can you communicate these ideas clearly, and synthesize them and clarify them in your own mind? So? So yeah, it's definitely a process with a lot of trial and error. But, you know, Randy, Ray, and others were just very helpful along the way as well. So, so yeah, and yeah, it was it's, you know, trying to build on on everyone else's work, of course, as well. Awesome.

Adam Rice: 1:08:25

Ryan, was there.

Ryan Benincasa: 1:08:27

Um, have you found that engaging with any other heterodox economists has been like, I've never heard of another, you know, documentary film or it's like, oh, this other, you know, heterodox School of Economics. That's not I mean, MMT is just so it's just so different. You know, like, you know, in your kind of work, did you did you find that, you know, you speak with other heterodox schools of thought or anything.

Unknown: 1:09:02

Like what what do you mean, like, if I just came across,

Ryan Benincasa: 1:09:06

is there any like crossover with different like school like, heterodox schools of economics? Like I've heard that the, I think it's at UMass, they have like a heterodox Economics program where I think that's where Isabel Webber's from Yeah. Yeah, just sort of curious, because it's such an interesting, like, you don't hear about, you know, other heterodox economics being a film being made out of them out of it, for example, so I'm just kind of curious. Yeah.

Unknown: 1:09:40

And, you know, honestly, I probably wouldn't, you know, I guess, it is even just funny that there are so many heterodox schools. It's like, does this exist in other fields, you know, where there's like a million, like a lot of branches that are trying to criticize the mainstream branch. But um, yeah, so it maybe says something about economics itself that there's so many heterodox schools, but because the critiques are necessary, but yeah, I mean, I think, like some very prominent and I think a lot of the heterodox schools, you know, do not conform, but you know, agree on some of their critiques and angles and saying that You know, I'm very happy to see now like ecological economics is also a heterodox school. And they're very different from, you know, environmental economics, which is really just neoclassical. And so they're really integrating now with MMT, you know, this recent papers that have come out saying, with Jason Hickel. And, and two other co authors, they, you know, just had a recent paper called how to pay for saving the world, you know, MMT and degrowth kind of synthesis. And so it's very interesting, you know, this ecological economics world, they've kind of they've understood certain aspects of the of money, but now they're like, this money piece is really the piece that we've been missing, like, this whole time, you know, they're like, when we finally found MMT, and now are integrating it, they're like, this kind of makes our theory whole. And we can understand they have a vision for the future of, you know, how economies can function, necessarily, without GDP growth, or, you know, have a vision for how to live within planetary boundaries. And yet, they were like, We, they were always kind of stopped, or the this big obstacle that was, Well, how could you have that? Or how could you have a functioning economy? If, you know, we don't have increasing tax revenues and increasing growth to pay back the debt? Or to how are you going to pay for these social services like, like social security, or public transportation or more public provisioning of things? You know, they were always stopped by that money piece, how, how could How can an economy function if it's not growing in a way? And so? So there's a you know, it depends totally how you define growth rate. So there's a lot of movements even in the mainstream saying, we need to redefine growth, from being GDP growth to being growth in well being and other measures of, of societal, societal well being health, longevity, all these other metrics that we can use that actually measure the progress of society. And so, so, so anyway, so I think there's really exciting synthesis happening there, and the work of Stephen Hill and modern money lab down in Australia, and they're, they're doing amazing work with their new, you know, online graduate program. And I have to say, you know, they're sponsoring a little tour for us down in Australia, in March will be Stephanie will be coming down and myself, and we'll be screening in different cities in there. So they're doing amazing organizing on the ground, and they're really synthesizing those schools. And, and yeah, and I think it's so important, you know, it's so interesting, there's, there's a lot of women economists, you know, challenging that the mainstream. So you have Kate Ray worth, you know, Donut economics of Mariana mazzucato, with Michigan economy. Now you have Isabel Weber with inflation. And developing economist parent, you know, there's this whole development economics paradigm that I think MMT really provides a very different paradigm for thinking about developing economies. You know, unfortunately, we're not able to cover that in the film. But I think that's some of the most exciting stuff, you know, and so, so yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of room for for integration, and combining a lot of these ideas, like each each school maybe brings a piece, that's their emphasis, but they can be synthesized too. So, So anyhow, I don't know if that answers your question or where it was. Yeah.

Ryan Benincasa: 1:13:28

That was great.

Adam Rice: 1:13:31

And I know we're coming up on time here. Where can people find more about the film?

Unknown: 1:13:37

Yeah, so definitely. So our website is the best place now finding money film.com. And sign up for our email lists would be really great. And we can keep in touch about screenings that are going to be happening through the spring. And then like I said, we'll be releasing widely in probably early May, we just signed on, you know, the distributor for North America. So we, yeah, so the US and Canada, in theaters, and then. And then it'll be available wherever you rent movies, like, you know, Google or iTunes or Apple TV or where I wish. Yeah. No, we may, we may be selling DVDs, you know, all sorts of stuff. So I can get it as a present. But anyway, yes, there's, please just sign up on our website, we have like more resources there too, which list the myriad of podcast great podcasts on the subject and, and books and articles where you can really dig into more if you're hopefully, you know, inspired by, by the story like some of us are, and so and so, yeah, there's a lot of important resources that the film doesn't cover. But I think, you know, there's a lot to discuss and a lot of implications. So maybe we'll put some energy towards like extra scenes to release to delve into some of these other issues. Because yeah, I'd love to talk more about interest rates and inflation and and all that I really Yeah, but I just could not fit into the film about people totally losing it. Yeah.

Adam Rice: 1:15:11

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining today. It was great to have you on really enjoyed the time recession.

Unknown: 1:15:17

Yeah, no, thank you guys so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking with you all and meaning you so please do I hope to see you at our New York screening. I'll let you know. Oh there we'll have we will have like a week long run in New York. So get all the Wall Street folks out. And everyone else too, so that'll be exciting.

Ryan Benincasa: 1:15:37

Music

Unknown: 1:15:40

Yeah, no, thank you guys so much.